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Zhivvy

US pastor to burn copies of the Koran on 11th September

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I saw the second plane come in and hit the tower live, as it happened....and i literally felt a thousand souls instantaeously cry out....as i gasped and fell to my knees bursting in tears and screaming up to god a prayer, as i watched 1000 people burn to death -live...in front of me...

 

then president bush went to war with the wrong country....

http://minotredcross.org/images/31739D.jpg

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You are so right about the war with the wrong country!! I never understood that!

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I could mention that it is the first visit of all those souls this year but would anyone believe

Their 2nd will be in 2012

and in order for them to visit they must return with another soul.

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the guy is a complete nutter and should be jailed if he goes ahead with it............people like that that make this world a sad place to live in.............so much for being a man of peace!

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I know that there are many articles all over the news about this - this is just one of them.

What do the rest of you think about this man?

 

http://www.belfasttelegra...ptember-11-14936702.html

 

Apparently there are rumours that he wants to set this up as an official Koran burning day!

 

I think someone needs to have a good look at the calender and check the year instead of the day. it's f*cking 2010, not the medieval ages! crazy fanatics!

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I just popped in quickly this morning before work.... and was surprised to see this topic here.. I shouldn't be tho, one of the things I like about this zoo is that people here are thoughtful and engaged. I think everyone who has contributed to this discussion has made valid points and brought unique perspectives into light. We are all so much the same at heart, and yet all have such individual experiences that shape our thoughts and feelings.

 

Somehow the tiny minorities of fanatics have claimed the voice and the stage..... while trying not to give attention and feed into their lunacy, it seems right to speak out for peace and respect and coexistence.

 

But it is so sad that this man has even the smallest audience, and has found even the smallest group of followers to carry out his agenda. I believe in free speech, and yet..........

 

So thank you to all of you for speaking your thoughts, and giving everyone in the discussion a new perspective and new things to think about.... I know we are all coming from the heart and a place of mutual respect.

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Classic.........why is this idiot getting the attention??????????

because people like drama. and increased viewers and readers lead to increased advertising revenue, which leads to increased product sales....which lead to increased profits for corporations....which leads to more money spent on lobbying to influence politicians to write and pass legislation that favors their interests. In other words, corporations rule the world...or are well on their way to ruling the world. 

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i understand free speech too....but this goes against the spirit of the principles this couontry was founded upon. As does the protesting of the building of a Mosque a couple of blocks from Ground zero. But that's a whole 'nother subject.....

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Most people recognize that this act is wrong and stupid. There is little debate about this.


But, by the same token, note that the Islamic radicals have threatened to "issue a death sentence" against the pastor if he goes ahead with his protest act. Now, we cannot have people doing that either.  And we *certainly* cannot capitulate to this mobster-terror bullying. 


Frankly, I would like to see both Western and Islamic leaders not only asking that the pastor refrain from the book-burning and expressing their concern over the violence that will ensue if he does not (as is reported below), but I would also like to see these leaders bluntly calling out the fanatics on their murderous threat to issue a death-sentence Fatwa in response to an act of free expression (regardless of how hateful).  This is, after all, an ideological and cultural war that is being fought.  And it is the fanatics on both sides who are defining the battlefield.  Both need to be equally condemned.


This would take quite a bit of courage and truth-speaking on everyone's part, however, and I do not see that caliber of leadership in play--anywhere.


---------
(CNN) -- President Barack Obama on Thursday said a Florida church's plans to burn dozens of Qurans this weekend would be a "recruitment bonanza" for al Qaeda.


"You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan or Afghanistan," Obama told ABC's "Good Morning America."


"This could increase the recruitment of individuals who'd be willing to blow themselves up in American cities or European cities."


Obama said he hoped the pastor, Terry Jones, understands that the planned burning is a "destructive act" that may have a dangerous fallout.


"I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women in uniform who are in Iraq, who are in Afghanistan. We're already seeing protests against Americans just by the

His comments came amid increasing international condemnation of the planned event on September 11 with the Presidents of Indonesia and Pakistan voicing their disapproval.


Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono wrote a letter to President Barack Obama urging him to stop a Florida church that said it will burn copies of the Quran.


Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari expressed grave concern over the threats to burn copies of the Quran.


Terry Jones, the head of a small church in Gainesville, Florida, says he will go ahead with plans to burn Qurans on Saturday, to mark the anniversary of the September 11, 2001 attacks.


In his letter to Obama, President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono urged him "to ensure that this hideous act is not carried out," said Teuku Faizasyah, a presidential spokesman.


"It's a very dangerous situation and we are very concerned," Faizasyah said.


Indonesia, which has a population of 230 million and is the world's most populous Muslim state, is worried that burning the Muslim holy book would incite hardline Muslims in Indonesia and around the world, Faizasyah said.


Similar concerns are being echoed in Pakistan where there has been growing anger at the planned burning.


Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari said anyone who thought of such a despicable act must be suffering from a diseased mind and a sickly soul, said spokesman Farhatullah Babar.


Zardari said it will inflame sentiments among Muslims throughout the world and cause irreparable damage to interfaith harmony and world peace.


Also on Thursday Pakistan's Interior Minister Rehman Malik called on Interpol, the international police organization, to stop the church from carrying out its plan to burn the Quran.


Meanwhile hardline Indonesian Muslims are threatening retaliation. The Islamic Defenders Front, told CNN it will protest the planned burning and will issue a death sentence on Terry Jones, if he carries out his plan.


There is also increasing opposition to the planned event in the U.S. amid increased warnings that doing so could endanger U.S. troops and Americans worldwide.


U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton condemned the planned burning.


Speaking Tuesday at an iftar meal in Washington to celebrate the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, Clinton said: "I am heartened by the clear, unequivocal condemnation of this disrespectful, disgraceful act that has come from American religious leaders of all faiths ... as well as secular U.S. leaders and opinion makers."


Earlier this week, the top U.S. military commander in Afghanistan, Gen. David Petraeus, warned that the plan "could cause significant problems" for American troops overseas.


In response Jones said: "We are burning the book, we are not killing someone. We are not murdering people."

CNN's Kathy Quiano contributed to this report.


 

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i understand free speech too....but this goes against the spirit of the principles this couontry was founded upon. As does the protesting of the building of a Mosque a couple of blocks from Ground zero. But that's a whole 'nother subject.....

I'm the same as you Peter - I agree with freedom of speech but not when you are spreading hatred especially to this extreme.

As Nikki has said it is so great that we all are coming from the same place but have slightly different perspective on the subject.

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Oh, and I would like to confirm my earlier post re: the attack on the cartoonist in his home in Denmark several years after he published the Mohammad cartoons.  But I did get one detail wrong-- the Somali man was not wielding a shovel but rather an axe.  His intention was to hack the cartoonist and his granddaughter to pieces in their beds.  Thank goodness for the panic room, which the cartoonist, apparently, felt compelled to install.

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Ok, maybe I'm talking out of knowlegde, but, let's see.

 

Probably the law can do something.

 

In my country the constitution warranty freedom of speech, and I think it's very important.

But, also stablish the freedom of practising religions as you wish. I think in US is the same.

 

Now I'm asking laywers, is it possible that this guy's action interfere with that right ? If it does, the law can do something about it, that would be the best prove to muslims that US condenm this attitude.

 

Any lawyers in the forum ?

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Ok, maybe I'm talking out of knowlegde, but, let's see.

 

Probably the law can do something.

 

In my country the constitution warranty freedom of speech, and I think it's very important.

But, also stablish the freedom of practising religions as you wish. I think in US is the same.

 

Now I'm asking laywers, is it possible that this guy's action interfere with that right ? If it does, the law can do something about it, that would be the best prove to muslims that US condenm this attitude.

 

Any lawyers in the forum ?

i am not a lawyer, thank God......but there are definitely no laws against burning religious book, the american flag, etc. It is that whole freedom of speech thing. However, there could be environmental laws regarding buring. They might have to have a special permit to burn something out in the open like that...it would be a local law probably.

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[quote name='Zhivvy wrote:


petermullen']i understand free speech too....but this goes against the spirit of the principles this couontry was founded upon. As does the protesting of the building of a Mosque a couple of blocks from Ground zero. But that's a whole 'nother subject.....

I'm the same as you Peter - I agree with freedom of speech but not when you are spreading hatred especially to this extreme.

As Nikki has said it is so great that we all are coming from the same place but have slightly different perspective on the subject.

i second that, that was a beautiful post, nikki!

and may i suggest 'freedom of speech' is used many situations where people try to justify hatred and disrespectful behavior. don get me wrong, i don like censoring much, but....
i remember, when i was much younger, (and before the whole dutroux/pedophile-crisis happened over here) there was this guy claiming sex between adult men and teenage boys wasnt wrong. it was natural! teenage boys and even younger children wanted to have sex, they want to do wath comes naturally, they wanna experiment with there body and could only benefit by an experienced man guiding them. there was some sort of debat about the question if he had the right to openly preach his believes ....
what do you think? does freedom of speech allow people to say such things? 
it reminds me of the term assertivity, that is often used by people to stand up for themselves in a way i would call agressive....
temrs of modern society that give some sort of pass to be rude and do what ever you like without being reprimanded... 

i always thought someones presonal freedom is only  limited by the freedom of others.in that case everyone has a right to use his/her freedom of speech as long as it doesnt interfear with the personal freedom and rights of others...

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[quote name='barbara1 wrote:


Zhivvy wrote:

petermullen']i understand free speech too....but this goes against the spirit of the principles this couontry was founded upon. As does the protesting of the building of a Mosque a couple of blocks from Ground zero. But that's a whole 'nother subject.....

I'm the same as you Peter - I agree with freedom of speech but not when you are spreading hatred especially to this extreme.

As Nikki has said it is so great that we all are coming from the same place but have slightly different perspective on the subject.

i second that, that was a beautiful post, nikki!

and may i suggest 'freedom of speech' is used many situations where people try to justify hatred and disrespectful behavior. don get me wrong, i don like censoring much, but....
i remember, when i was much younger, (and before the whole dutroux/pedophile-crisis happened over here) there was this guy claiming sex between adult men and teenage boys wasnt wrong. it was natural! teenage boys and even younger children wanted to have sex, they want to do wath comes naturally, they wanna experiment with there body and could only benefit by an experienced man guiding them. there was some sort of debat about the question if he had the right to openly preach his believes ....
what do you think? does freedom of speech allow people to say such things? 
it reminds me of the term assertivity, that is often used by people to stand up for themselves in a way i would call agressive....
temrs of modern society that give some sort of pass to be rude and do what ever you like without being reprimanded... 

i always thought someones presonal freedom is only  limited by the freedom of others.in that case everyone has a right to use his/her freedom of speech as long as it doesnt interfear with the personal freedom and rights of others...
Don't agree with you Barb, sorry, nothing personal to you honey

 

Who can tell me what can I say or not ? Expressing your thoughts or beliefs doesn't interfear with others rights. I think we have to defend freedom of speach always.

 

in the case you mention, the guy can say what he wants, if he believes that, ok with him, I don't agree with him. As society, the majority determines what actions are alowed or not, childreen are growing up, they can't undersand still what's right or wrong, and, they can't have sex with adults, because adults have a huge advantage because they are grown up, they can take decissions, kids can't, so is an un-balanced relationship where one part has complete power over the other. So the society decides to punish those adults who do such things. But, he has the right to thing what he wants.

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I know that I am stating the obvious here and simplifying the whole thing but what happened to the fact that our Gods a peaceful and want to bring love and peace to this earth and respect for each and every nation. Why can't somebody be shown on TV saying this?

I know that this man is in a minority and if the media hadn't heard about this this man would be ignored and no-one would know about him and his actions/ideas.

And freedom of speech is a wonderful thing and I am grateful that I live in a counry where we can exercise our freedoms. But freedom of speech was given to us so that we didn't need to live in fear, so that we can voice our opinions without fear of ridicule - or even as far as death. But not all of us live within the 'normal' restraints of our moral being - and these who don't are the ones who push the boundaries of freedom of speech and these are the ones who say things which they know are imflamatry and will cause reactions etc ....and say it for those reasons and then try to justify it by saying that they are from a country which promotes freedom of speech. But even with a freedom of speech will all know that there is still right and wrong and sometimes what is said is wrong and we know that.

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People are not shown on TV saying such rational things because it doesn't stir controversy and debate. Even if you leave the God part out...why wouldn't everybody want to live in peace...sharing the abundant resources of the planet we live on?

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People are not shown on TV saying such rational things because it doesn't stir controversy and debate. Even if you leave the God part out...why wouldn't everybody want to live in peace...sharing the abundant resources of the planet we live on?

Exactly Peter - we seem to thrive on negativity. I know that I am a simple soul at times but why can't we be more positive.

When there was a thread on here about the questions for the screen on the tour one of my questions was why is only bad news broadcasted? Why can't we have a positive newspaper? Reading good news in the morning would create more positivity in hte day. As a teacher I try to teach the kids about having a positive outlook on life etc... but then when they leave the class they are faced with negative images all around them

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okay, so we agree to disagree, nazh, lol!

i think everyones freedom is limited, so also our freedom of speech. like we said in the other thread, there must be rules, to protect others. i've mentionned the holocaust-denial in the past. can society allow people to say in public there has been no such thing? its not allowed in our country. so some say that takes away on people's freedom. and it does, but not being allowed to drive through the red light takes away from your freedom too.... but nobody protests against this rule?

i know many of you are christians, so i found these bibleverses:

colossians 4:6: let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man.
and jesus said to the pharisees in mathew 15:18: but those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile a man. for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murder, adulteries, fornications, thefts, flse witness, blasphemies. these are the things which defile a man.

so according to this it is NOT okay to say whatever we want.
btw: i love u 2, nazh. its not cause we don agree that we don like or respect eachother!

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"Positivity"

by Stevie Wonder......

 

Some people ask me why always on the bright side

When there's so much going on down the other side

It's like I live in a bubble with no trouble

And problems don't exist

 

I chuckle and tell them that ain't the case at all

It goes way back to the time when I was very small

Not in mind but size and age my papa use to say

 

You can always look at the negative

But you should always live in the positive

So I try everyday to live that way

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

 

Some people live in what was and what they could have been

As opposed to living in a what is and how much they can

And be the first to complain about nothing in life going their way

The attitude is "that I can't do nothing 'bout"

And very happy with just breathing in and out

The ones that when you say "lets go make a difference"

They'll say "naw that's OK"

 

So I don't waste time on the trip side

'Cause I do know the real on the flipside

And I'm crystal clear everyday that's why I say, yeah

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

 

When I see the morning

And the sun is smiling down upon me

I joy in the blessing

That still the ground is not above me

And for the people

That I can truly say do love me, I feel

Positivity, 'cause that's what life's meant to be

Positivity, 'cause this day did not have to be

 

Some ask me why I'm such an optimist

When it's more fashionable be a pessimist

From what's in seventy-five percent of what we read, hear and view

Well I use to have a friend named Minnie Riperton

Who use to always say when she was living

"Like fine wine I like seeing the glass of life as half full than half empty"

 

I'm saying sometimes life can't be rough

But never to the point of me saying I've had enough

Long as my heart beats I ain't giving up

That's why I say everyday

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

 

When people ask me as an African American

What do I see for tomorrow in the human plan?

Is it possible for all the people of the world to co-exist?

 

I say unity is only as big as our vision

And if its narrow, try to expand beyond the horizon

But true leaders must guide us through the ills of society

That stands in our way

So if the road is to harmony, be with the call

But if its about discord, don't take the ride at all

'Cause the world vision I see is the one-we for everybody

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

 

When I see the morning

And the sun is smiling down upon me

Just joy in the blessing

That still the ground is not above me

And for the people

That you can truly say do love you, do feel

Positivity, 'cause that's what life's meant to be

Positivity, and that's the energy the world needs

Positivity, 'cause that's what life means to me

Positivity, 'cause this day did not have to be

Positivity, 'cause that's what life's meant to be

Positivity, 'cause that's the energy the world needs

Positivity, 'cause that's what life's meant to be

Positivity, and this day did not have to be

Positivity, 'cause that's what life means to me

Positivity, and that's the energy the world needs

Positivity, 'cause that's what life's meant to be

Positivity, and that's the energy the world needs

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okay, so we agree to disagree, nazh, lol!
i think everyones freedom is limited, so also our freedom of speech. like we said in the other thread, there must be rules, to protect others. i've mentionned the holocaust-denial in the past. can society allow people to say in public there has been no such thing? its not allowed in our country. so some say that takes away on people's freedom. and it does, but not being allowed to drive through the red light takes away from your freedom too.... but nobody protests against this rule?

i know many of you are christians, so i found these bibleverses:

colossians 4:6: let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man.
and jesus said to the pharisees in mathew 15:18: but those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile a man. for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murder, adulteries, fornications, thefts, flse witness, blasphemies. these are the things which defile a man.

so according to this it is NOT okay to say whatever we want.
btw: i love u 2, nazh. its not cause we don agree that we don like or respect eachother!
Of course honey, we both are people of good wil. Exchanging thoughts makes us grow, because even when we are not agree about something, I hear you and you hear me, this is because we both know we don't have the truth, and doing this we have more perspectives and think better. Then we can set our positions better. This is what I like about freedom of speach, this feeds us, at least people who hear besides of speaks.

 

Thank you for your opinions, they are very valuable for all of us.

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[quote name='Zhivvy wrote:


petermullen']People are not shown on TV saying such rational things because it doesn't stir controversy and debate. Even if you leave the God part out...why wouldn't everybody want to live in peace...sharing the abundant resources of the planet we live on?

Exactly Peter - we seem to thrive on negativity. I know that I am a simple soul at times but why can't we be more positive.

When there was a thread on here about the questions for the screen on the tour one of my questions was why is only bad news broadcasted? Why can't we have a positive newspaper? Reading good news in the morning would create more positivity in hte day. As a teacher I try to teach the kids about having a positive outlook on life etc... but then when they leave the class they are faced with negative images all around them

This is what we are discussing in my country nowadays (Argentina). We have a new law for the media, they can't be monopolies any more. Of course the big media business is ataching the goverment night and day. Every new is bad, negative, sad, disapointed. I have to tell you, they lie, the lie with big things. They want us to be fear.

 

Recently I've heard the new about the pastor in question in that broadcast, they put a music that makes you feel alert and in danger. They say: "188 countries on alert for posible outrages".

Then they interview a person and he says, outrages are posible, but he things they won't happen, because in the last 10 year he listened to media alerting for outrages all the time, and they happened, but compared with that media have anounced, they not. he was saying about the depropotion between the alerting and what finally happens. He didn't finish to say this, when the journalist interrupted him and said, thank you, let's hope it won't happen..

 

Media needs this, they want us to be fear all the time. Goverments can manage us better if we are in fear. Fear is the key.

 

I'm afraid Obana have anounced the Iraq troups to be retired, and, what a coincidence, now, worldwide is in alert.

It has bad smell, sounds like operation, be fear, start conflicts, make war, alow us to invade, to spent lots of your money for you to be safe.

 

What is cheapest, war, or peace ?

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The attacks on the Twin Towers were racist and obscene. But the Christian church in the US can't retaliate with another equally racist and obscene act. As Obama has said, this could lead to attacks on innocent people in the US and also US troops in Afghanistan. I am equally disgusted, however, by the plans for a Ground Zero Mosque. None of these things will bring out Islam and the West.

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