clopes

How does Ticketmaster VerifiedFan REALLY work?

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Note: I didn't post this to the "North America Leg 1" forum because my topic is not specific to Leg 1 or any particular city/date, although it seems to be specific to North America.

So for the general public onsale (in North America), it seems that 100% of all tickets that would normally be available for the public to purchase on Ticketmaster will only be sold to people who have registered for their VerifiedFan program.  

And from reading about this program, it seems to be a way to:

  1. Change the way in which people get tickets from first-come first-served to random selection (in part -- see below).  It was not obvious to me until I read their FAQ several times but there is simply no way to purchase tickets unless you have been randomly chosen.  A side point is that since this is so different/new, I'm not sure why it isn't stated at the top of related web pages in giant text.
  2. Perhaps actually "verify" that someone is a "fan" and not a reseller or scalper.  
  3. Prevent Ticketmaster's servers from crashing.

So here are some questions:

a) Ticketmaster states repeatedly that EVEN if you are randomly selected to have the chance to purchase tickets, those tickets are not guaranteed.  My interpretation of this is that say there are 10,000 tickets that will be available for a show.  They will randomly select some number of people that is LARGER than 10,000.  The question is why would they do this and how much larger?  At first it seems silly, because it will just trigger a subsequent first-come first-served race like we have today.  But I suppose they need to account for people who are randomly selected but cannot complete a purchase due to declined credit cards, no longer wanting to attend, logistical issues making the purchase promptly, etc.  But is that all that it is, or do they seriously purposely select more people because they actually want to sustain a first-come first-served market for some other reason?  A complicating factor is that of course people value venue sections differently and so yes your particular preferred section may be sold out but I am ignoring this aspect of it for now.

Side note: why don't they just do it in timed phases instead.  In other words, randomly select exactly 10,000 people.  Give them 1 hour to complete the purchase.  If only 9,000 people manage to do this, then randomly select 1000 more people after the first hour and give them 1 hour (or maybe 2 hours due to the short notice) to make their purchase.  Continue this for a few hours until the number of tickets left is insignificant.  Now you've avoided people getting selected and then later being disappointed,. 

b ) Do they really verify that people are "fans" in some way other than the natural weeding out of non-fans that would happen as a result of the change in process?

Update: yes it seems they actually try to do this but of course tickets still end up on sale elsewhere.  But it is possible that those are individuals and not professional scalpers, or perhaps just fewer professionals than before.  We don't really know.

c) When does the VerifiedFan sale end?  What is unclear to me is what happens if a concert does not have pre-registered demand that exceeds the supply.  In other words, say a show does not sell out on the first date of being on sale to the VerifiedFans.  A few days (or hours or weeks or months) later, Ticketmaster must be switching to regular first-come first-served because random selection does not make sense when the set of people who want to purchase tickets is ever-changing (after the on sale date) unless they release tickets in weekly batches or something crazy like that.  Plus by this time the published deadline for registration is by definition in the past.  

Update: it seems that if a show did not come close to selling out, then after the first day of the VerifiedFan sale (midnight local), the show reverts to a regular public sale on the second day at 10am local time.

d) Several people below feel that this change takes away a perceived advantage to long-time avid fans who would normally use their awareness of and experience with the first-come first-served process to have a bigger chance of getting tickets.  Is this fair?  Is it actually what is going to happen?  Is it something that Ticketmaster and/or U2 wants to happen?  Is it just a perceived loss of control in something that was actually always largely random to begin with?

e) Ticketmaster requires us to register separately for each individual show to which we want VerifiedFan access.  Does that mean each show has its own independent random selection process and that a fan will receive a separate code for each show to which he/she registered AND was selected?  Or is there a single random selection process across all shows and if a fan is selected, that fan will receive a single code which will work on all of the shows to which he/she registered?

Update: There appears to be a single random selection across all shows.  If you are selected, you get a code for each and every show that you registered for.  The selection is not per show but the code is (initially).  Later on during the day, Ticketmaster sent update emails saying that a single code could be used for multiple shows.

Note: I understand that there will be a lot of licensed re-sellers just like always, and scalpers will defeat this easily, and that the program has already had numerous issues with prior shows for other artists.

 

Edited by clopes

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All good questions. At this point we’ll have to wait for more info.  The random selection thing definitely injects anexity into the process.  Also, unfortunately this program does nothing to slow down scalpers. The 40$ for a subscription just gets tacked onto the price. If there are address or phone number limits they’ll just smurf those controls. They already get by CC entry by using pre-paid cards for the purchase amount, so this will do nothing either.

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Well they do seem to imply that they are doing some sort of analysis on the registered accounts in an effort to determine if they are real "fans", and I would guess that they probably are doing something.  And it does make some sense that they would be able to do this analysis more accurately if they know who wants to buy tickets days in advance of the purchase rather than only knowing at the moment of purchase,  It's unclear to me how tickets will be distributed, though.  E.g. traditional paper, electronic, credit card entry, or something else.

But yeah I suspect the good scalpers can get around everything.  And more importantly although I believe that U2 wants to avoid scalpers, I suspect that the economics of scalpers may actually be to the benefit of Ticketmaster, despite statements from them about wanting to prevent them.  Scalpers certainly cause an increase in demand which will result in more ticket sales and fees.

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Based on what I've read here, I'm sure the random draw only applies to the Citi presale and the General on sale. But those of us who are subscribers to the fan club will all get presale codes. If the random lottery thing applies to the fan club member presale too, I hope the mods can clarify, but as for now I'm pretty sure it only applies to the public sale and the Citi presale.

The difference in the public on sale of tickets this time is that anyone who wants to participate in the general on sale has to do the verified fan registration and register for the specific show(s) that they want to try for. And then on the day tickets go on sale, IF they are lucky and get picked by Ticketmaster, then they will get a code to buy tickets. But there's no guarantee during the public on sale that someone will get picked to get a code. 

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Yes I would agree that it seems the random draw is NOT going to be used for the Subscriber presale.  (Hence putting my original post here in the General forum)

It's actually kind of funny because there is this supposedly "new" process of linking with Ticketmaster for the subscriber presale, but in reality it seems that is the only part of the process that will basically proceed as normal.  Yeah there is an extra step, but the overall mechanic of every subscriber getting a code and it then being entirely first-come first-served for the presale is totally normal.  It's the public onsale that will have a completely different process.

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1 hour ago, clopes said:

...... but the overall mechanic of every subscriber getting a code and it then being entirely first-come first-served for the presale is totally normal.  It's the public onsale that will have a completely different process.

That is my understanding as well. It's the public on sale that will be very different this time. And from what I've been reading, the Citi card presale will be like the public on sale with the lottery draw thingy.

If we're misunderstanding then I'm sure a mod will correct what we're saying.

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So it will be very much as before but with less likelihood of getting tickets if they announce another date or two and you want to attend but have used your presale code ? 

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1 hour ago, kaber said:

So it will be very much as before but with less likelihood of getting tickets if they announce another date or two and you want to attend but have used your presale code ? 

Well they say "Verified U2.com Subscriber can purchase 2 tickets for any U2eiTour show(s)" which I assume to mean 2 tickets total across all shows.  If you have used up your 2 tickets and need to participate in the general public onsale, then it will be (in my opinion) very different than before because it will be largely random.  I guess the likelihood of getting tickets would be reduced if you are the type of person who gets on Ticketmaster at the first second and trying to take advantage of first-come first-served, yes.  But buyers who wait a few hours normally (for whatever reason) might have a better chance with the random draw.  The question is who would be savvy enough to register for VerifiedFan but then not normally try to make their purchase at the first second?  Maybe people who are busy at their job or with something else.

I guess there could be a lot of reasons for a subscriber to end up needing to buy tickets in the general onsale beyond just adding show dates.

Actually what is unclear to me is what happens if a concert does not have demand that exceeds the supply.  In other words, say a show does not sell out on the first date of being on sale to the VerifiedFans.  A few days (or hours or weeks or months) later, Ticketmaster must be switching to regular first-come first-served because random selection does not make sense when the set of people who want to purchase tickets is ever-changing (after the on sale date) unless they release tickets in weekly batches or something crazy like that.  Plus by this time the published deadline for registration is by definition in the past.

Edited by clopes

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For those of us who go to multiple shows, I can only see Verified Fan for general sale adding way more anxiety than needed, increases the likelihood we will have to go to scalpers to get tickets (if we're not "chosen" for the shows we want, including added dates), and increase the scalper markup because of higher demand. I can also see those who can afford crazy amounts of money just going straight to scalpers rather than dealing with the hassle. 

I'm happy to be proven wrong and see all fans get codes and have a shot at face value tickets, but I'm not holding my breath. I just hope U2 continues to do ticket drops closer to, and day of, shows that isn't tied to any VF insanity. That has worked very well for most shows.

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5 minutes ago, stateless said:

For those of us who go to multiple shows, I can only see Verified Fan for general sale adding way more anxiety than needed, increases the likelihood we will have to go to scalpers to get tickets (if we're not "chosen" for the shows we want, including added dates), and increase the scalper markup because of higher demand. I can also see those who can afford crazy amounts of money just going straight to scalpers rather than dealing with the hassle. 

Yeah it does make some sense that hard core fans kind of deserve the advantage they can get using first-come first-serve, although I can think of exceptions to this.

Quote

I just hope U2 continues to do ticket drops closer to, and day of, shows that isn't tied to any VF insanity. That has worked very well for most shows

What is that?  Can you explain more? Do they have a tradition of releasing new batches of tickets on Ticketmaster near or on the show date?

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11 minutes ago, clopes said:

Well they say "Verified U2.com Subscriber can purchase 2 tickets for any U2eiTour show(s)" which I assume to mean 2 tickets total across all shows.  If you have used up your 2 tickets and need to participate in the general public onsale, then it will be (in my opinion) very different than before because it will be largely random.  I guess the likelihood of getting tickets would be reduced if you are the type of person who gets on Ticketmaster at the first second and trying to take advantage of first-come first-served, yes.  But buyers who wait a few hours normally (for whatever reason) might have a better chance with the random draw.  The question is who would be savvy enough to register for VerifiedFan but then not normally try to make their purchase at the first second?  Maybe people who are busy at their job or with something else.

I guess there could be a lot of reasons for a subscriber to end up needing to buy tickets in the general onsale beyond just adding show dates.

Actually what is unclear to me is what happens if a concert does not have demand that exceeds the supply.  In other words, say a show does not sell out on the first date of being on sale to the VerifiedFans.  A few days (or hours or weeks or months) later, Ticketmaster must be switching to regular first-come first-served because random selection does not make sense when the set of people who want to purchase tickets is ever-changing (after the on sale date) unless they release tickets in weekly batches or something crazy like that.  Plus by this time the published deadline for registration is by definition in the past.

Maybe the Access Codes will expire in 24 hours and they will send out another batch of codes to registered fans that didn't receive one in the first round.  Then if tickets are still unsold they will be available for purchase the traditional way.  

I imagine it will be a lot harder for scalpers to program bots with these access codes being sent via text message and purchase links sent separately, but I imagine they will eventually figure out a way around it. 

Now we know they will play more dates in some of these larger markets(NYC, Boston, etc.).  So I wonder if these access codes will work with those added shows or if they will start this whole process over again for those tickets?

 

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5 minutes ago, afg said:

Now we know they will play more dates in some of these larger markets(NYC, Boston, etc.).  So I wonder if these access codes will work with those added shows or if they will start this whole process over again for those tickets?

Each individual show has to be registered for separately so the codes are for that one show only.  If they add dates and keep using VerifiedFan, there will be some new deadline to register for the new dates and it will result in new codes. (I assume all of this)

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1 hour ago, clopes said:

Yeah it does make some sense that hard core fans kind of deserve the advantage they can get using first-come first-serve, although I can think of exceptions to this.

What is that?  Can you explain more? Do they have a tradition of releasing new batches of tickets on Ticketmaster near or on the show date?

Traditionally, once they get the stage in the venue, they will have small batches of tickets to release based on spacing. They are usually unannounced (unless a fan sees it and announces it) and go very quickly. 

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I did fan verified for pink and received tickets in the mail. Does anyone know if this is the case for u2? No more showing credit card and Id? I can’t find that anywhere. I assume we do? 

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In my experience, Verified Fan was absolutely awful for the two events that I tried to use it for - Springsteen On Broadway, and Harry Potter And The Cursed Child.

Right now, Verified Fan seems to work as a two step process that is not at all transparent.  In step one, Ticketmaster attempts to sort out who is a "real" fan and who is a scalper.  They look at things like "Have you bought tickets to two different events happening at the same date and time repeatedly?".  (A person buying a pair of tickets to see the same band in two cities shouldn't set off red flags; a person who routinely buys tickets to concerts in Des Moines and San Diego for the same dates is probably a reseller.)  This is a worthwhile thing to attempt.  Unfortunately, there's also a secret step two, whereby they take all of the people who are successfully verified, and then run a lottery to determine, in advance, which winners should be allowed to purchase tickets.  Let's say there are 10,000 tickets for an event, and 20,000 people register.  If 20,000 people register and all are determined to be valid, Ticketmaster doesn't send them all codes - it only sends codes to a select few to try to buy tickets, and then no one else other than those select few are allowed, at any time, to try to buy tickets. 

So, even though I registered for the Springsteen event, and was deemed to not be a scalper, I wasn't allowed to try to buy tickets.  Even though I registered for the Harry Potter show and was deemed not to be a scalper, I wasn't allowed to try to buy tickets.  At all.  Ever.  Meanwhile, tickets for those shows are on Stubhub, so their verification process didn't really work.

In my opinion, the best and most fair thing to do would be for Ticketmaster to verify which accounts were legitimate fans and which ones weren't.  Then, if you pass verification, you should have the chance to buy tickets as you normally would.  If there are only 10,000 tickets but 20,000 people register, I don't want Ticketmaster deciding in advance, by methods that are never revealed to the public, which people should be allowed to buy tickets and which people don't even get a chance.  If Ticketmaster gets 20,000 valid registrations, then they should send out 20,000 codes.  They should not be running lotteries in advance of the ticket sale to determine who is and who is not allowed to buy, especially since that is not readily disclosed.  It should be everyone who passes the test gets a code, but getting a code doesn't guarantee tickets.

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1 hour ago, vertigojds said:

... and then no one else other than those select few are allowed, at any time, to try to buy tickets. ...

... I wasn't allowed to try to buy tickets.  At all.  Ever.  ...

Thanks for the info on how it has worked (or not worked) for you.  In my original post opening this thread, question c) is about what I've quoted you on here.

Based on what you've said, I assume that those concerts sold out "quickly".  Meaning within the timeframe that Ticketmaster considers the codes valid and the initial "random selection" process still in place.  If the concerts did not sell out during that undisclosed timeframe, then I would have to imagine that they would somehow create an opportunity for a new set of people to buy tickets either via another round of random selection or (most likely) opening up the show as a normal first-come first-served sale.

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4 hours ago, vertigojds said:

In my experience, Verified Fan was absolutely awful for the two events that I tried to use it for - Springsteen On Broadway, and Harry Potter And The Cursed Child.

Right now, Verified Fan seems to work as a two step process that is not at all transparent.  In step one, Ticketmaster attempts to sort out who is a "real" fan and who is a scalper.  They look at things like "Have you bought tickets to two different events happening at the same date and time repeatedly?".  (A person buying a pair of tickets to see the same band in two cities shouldn't set off red flags; a person who routinely buys tickets to concerts in Des Moines and San Diego for the same dates is probably a reseller.)  This is a worthwhile thing to attempt.  Unfortunately, there's also a secret step two, whereby they take all of the people who are successfully verified, and then run a lottery to determine, in advance, which winners should be allowed to purchase tickets.  Let's say there are 10,000 tickets for an event, and 20,000 people register.  If 20,000 people register and all are determined to be valid, Ticketmaster doesn't send them all codes - it only sends codes to a select few to try to buy tickets, and then no one else other than those select few are allowed, at any time, to try to buy tickets. 

So, even though I registered for the Springsteen event, and was deemed to not be a scalper, I wasn't allowed to try to buy tickets.  Even though I registered for the Harry Potter show and was deemed not to be a scalper, I wasn't allowed to try to buy tickets.  At all.  Ever.  Meanwhile, tickets for those shows are on Stubhub, so their verification process didn't really work.

In my opinion, the best and most fair thing to do would be for Ticketmaster to verify which accounts were legitimate fans and which ones weren't.  Then, if you pass verification, you should have the chance to buy tickets as you normally would.  If there are only 10,000 tickets but 20,000 people register, I don't want Ticketmaster deciding in advance, by methods that are never revealed to the public, which people should be allowed to buy tickets and which people don't even get a chance.  If Ticketmaster gets 20,000 valid registrations, then they should send out 20,000 codes.  They should not be running lotteries in advance of the ticket sale to determine who is and who is not allowed to buy, especially since that is not readily disclosed.  It should be everyone who passes the test gets a code, but getting a code doesn't guarantee tickets.

 

 

^^^^^^ This , I agree 100% with ALL of that , so far i have been shut out of two shows for presales with this system & if you read an artists facebook pages it's happening to a ton of longtime fans , I alos have to laugh at the "we want to keep the tix in the fans hands" all this system does is allow Ticket master (who is the Biggest scalper going , to keep more tix)  ......... whole thing is laughable , it's like handing the key to the sheeps pen with the wolves ...... Good luck everyone ;)

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On 11/9/2017 at 2:13 AM, monica martino said:

@vertigojds

Any news about a sale to verified subscriber? 

As far as I knew, "verified subscriber" is a new thing - so I have absolutely no idea what this is gonna look like for us practically speaking.

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On 11/8/2017 at 5:37 PM, vertigojds said:

In my opinion, the best and most fair thing to do would be for Ticketmaster to verify which accounts were legitimate fans and which ones weren't.  Then, if you pass verification, you should have the chance to buy tickets as you normally would. 

THIS! I've been buying concert tickets since the 80s, via in-person, phone, and online, and rarely get shut out of shows I want to see. I may not get the best seat in the house, but usually get something. It's ridiculous to pick and choose who gets a chance to buy tickets once you verify an account is not a bot or scalper. If they can successfully weed out those 2 categories of buyers, then the rest of us have a far better chance. I'd also be for lowering ticket limits to 2 PER SHOW. Not per "city" or "event" or "fan". This also opens up more tickets for more people. It sucks for families or bigger groups, but IMO allows for more fair distribution. 

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1 hour ago, stateless said:

It's ridiculous to pick and choose who gets a chance to buy tickets once you verify an account is not a bot or scalper. If they can successfully weed out those 2 categories of buyers, then the rest of us have a far better chance. 

Yeah basically the principle of this change (in a sense) seems to be that: previously, avid fans with enough desire could take advantage of first-come first-served to be more likely to get tickets.  Now, there is no such advantage and such fans are treated no differently than any other person who just wants to go to the concert.

But the counterargument might be that the registration process itself is the replacement.  So in other words those same avid fans with enough desire are going to be the majority of people who even register in the first place, and then the random selection that will happen is effectively equivalent to the seemingly random way in which people do or do not get tickets during the previous mad rush.

And a deeper argument is that maybe by "fan", ticketmaster just means "anyone who actually wants to go to the concert".  So shouldn't those people all have an equal chance of being able to go?  And isn't a random selection the best way to give an equal chance? In other words, if you really want to be given preference, then that's why you pay extra to participate in the non-random presale.

Of course this assumes that Ticketmaster can actually weed out only and all bots/scalpers and that their random selection is truly random.  And based upon decades of history, a lot of us are skeptical.

Edited by clopes

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On 11/8/2017 at 5:37 PM, vertigojds said:

In my experience, Verified Fan was absolutely awful for the two events that I tried to use it for - Springsteen On Broadway, and Harry Potter And The Cursed Child.

Right now, Verified Fan seems to work as a two step process that is not at all transparent.  In step one, Ticketmaster attempts to sort out who is a "real" fan and who is a scalper.  They look at things like "Have you bought tickets to two different events happening at the same date and time repeatedly?".  (A person buying a pair of tickets to see the same band in two cities shouldn't set off red flags; a person who routinely buys tickets to concerts in Des Moines and San Diego for the same dates is probably a reseller.)  This is a worthwhile thing to attempt.  Unfortunately, there's also a secret step two, whereby they take all of the people who are successfully verified, and then run a lottery to determine, in advance, which winners should be allowed to purchase tickets.  Let's say there are 10,000 tickets for an event, and 20,000 people register.  If 20,000 people register and all are determined to be valid, Ticketmaster doesn't send them all codes - it only sends codes to a select few to try to buy tickets, and then no one else other than those select few are allowed, at any time, to try to buy tickets. 

So, even though I registered for the Springsteen event, and was deemed to not be a scalper, I wasn't allowed to try to buy tickets.  Even though I registered for the Harry Potter show and was deemed not to be a scalper, I wasn't allowed to try to buy tickets.  At all.  Ever.  Meanwhile, tickets for those shows are on Stubhub, so their verification process didn't really work.

In my opinion, the best and most fair thing to do would be for Ticketmaster to verify which accounts were legitimate fans and which ones weren't.  Then, if you pass verification, you should have the chance to buy tickets as you normally would.  If there are only 10,000 tickets but 20,000 people register, I don't want Ticketmaster deciding in advance, by methods that are never revealed to the public, which people should be allowed to buy tickets and which people don't even get a chance.  If Ticketmaster gets 20,000 valid registrations, then they should send out 20,000 codes.  They should not be running lotteries in advance of the ticket sale to determine who is and who is not allowed to buy, especially since that is not readily disclosed.  It should be everyone who passes the test gets a code, but getting a code doesn't guarantee tickets.

I agree completely.  They should weed out scalpers, etc., and then let everyone else (e.g., folks like us) have at it.

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