legalised touting

[redgavexile]

10 minutes ago, richevs said:

Hey click on the tickets link for Madison Square Garden. Ticketmaster page shows half the sold out seats are VERIFIED FANS reselling their tix at 3 times price.

Problem is Livenation own U2, own primary ticket sites and own secondary ticket sites

That could well be the case , but how hard is it really to beat that process? A email address and a credit card .And as the link I posted shows , they are already doing that .Viagogo had a book of credit cards to purchase with , and a host of email addresses .Of course the other issue is the "Turkeys voting for Xmas" problem whereby those reporting on this are the same people that are causing this .They want the world to believe that greedy fans in fan clubs are the issue as it suits their agenda .Less pre-sales means bigger slice of tickets for them to fleece even more

Wish bands would wake up to this and have a more direct input, its not as if they don't know ,they're all reading the same news as the rest of us

[Mark Taylor]

On 03/02/2018 at 3:29 PM, redgavexile said:

That could well be the case , but how hard is it really to beat that process? A email address and a credit card .And as the link I posted shows , they are already doing that .Viagogo had a book of credit cards to purchase with , and a host of email addresses .Of course the other issue is the "Turkeys voting for Xmas" problem whereby those reporting on this are the same people that are causing this .They want the world to believe that greedy fans in fan clubs are the issue as it suits their agenda .Less pre-sales means bigger slice of tickets for them to fleece even more

Wish bands would wake up to this and have a more direct input, its not as if they don't know ,they're all reading the same news as the rest of us

100% correct. Ticketmaster and Livenation (and U2) should be taking a LONG HARD LOOK at process and correcting it for next time. NOT blaming their 'greedy' fans!....Totally agree making the process complex and/or weakly protected is THEIR responsiblility not the fans, and should not be used as an excuse (or deliberate means) to make more tickets available for resale, platinum or verified - cons of their own design.

[CorkVegan]

On 2/3/2018 at 10:06 AM, richevs said:

 

Problem is Livenation own U2, 

Exactly. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by CorkVegan

[vertigojds]

I feel like some of the problem is related to the LiveNation/Ticketmaster/U2 partnership, and some of the problem is related to laws on the books not being enforced.

From the LiveNation/Ticketmaster/U2 end of things, Ticketmaster offers what they call "Verified Resale" tickets which is their own version of Stubhub.  Ticketmaster has stated that they only allow Verified Resale ticket listings with the artist's consent - presumably the artist receives a cut of the proceeds.  Ticketmaster explicitly stated that they only allow this when the artist has given consent, making it sound that rather than an artist needing to "opt out," that an artist has to specifically "opt in."  Ticketmaster offers Verified Resale tickets for U2.  In fact, for the most recent Madison Square Garden show, at the moment tickets went onsale at 9am, I was immediately shown dozens of listings for resale tickets before I was even given the option to look at a face value ticket.  (Presumably this is from people who bought fan club and/or Citi presale tickets and listed them in advance of the public onsale.)  Since Ticketmaster has said they only do Verified Fan with the artist's consent, this means that U2 has consented to this.  I can't think of any way around that cold, hard fact.  It's a simple logic chain in the end:
    1. All shows that have Verified Resale tickets have them because the artist approved the sale of Verified Resale tickets
    2. U2 shows have Verified Resale tickets
    3. Therefore, U2 approved the use of Verified Resale
I can't think of any way around that conclusion.  And for a band that so long has said they hate scalping, it just sucks to see them abandoning that position.  There are plenty of other top selling artists, like Bruce Springsteen and Billy Joel, who simply do not allow Verified Resale.

Additionally, U2's use of Verified Fan does not seem to have been as efficient at preventing scalping as some other artist.  Ed Sheeran used it for his current 2017-2018 tour, and he's playing large arenas and football stadiums.  For the Ed Sheeran tour, when you purchase tickets, there is an additional page or box in the checkout page, and you can't buy your tickets until you read it and acknowledge it.  What the box says is, by purchasing these tickets through the Verified Fan system, you are agreeing that you will not resell your tickets above face value, and that you consent to having the delivery of tickets delayed until much closer to the event.  Ed Sheeran's team has then been going through those orders and matching them up against resale listings, and canceling thousands of tickets orders where people have violated the terms they agreed to.  Those tickets are then returned to the system, allowing fans who missed out the first time to get a second chance at face value seats.  Additionally, the top ticket price for Sheeran's show is under $150, so it shows that it's possible to offer this kind of ticketing without blowing up the budget.

So, to my mind, those are the U2/Ticketmaster/LiveNation problems -- and to be clear, LiveNation and Ticketmaster are the same company, and U2 sold their touring business to LiveNation, so it's all the same entity.  I don't think it's as simple as saying "U2 wouldn't do this, it's all Ticketmaster", because they are all, in fact, the same company right now.

Now, the other longstanding problem is that almost every state has a law on the books about the resale of tickets, and it is never, ever enforced.  In most states in the U.S., there are limits that are generally along the lines of "You may not resell tickets for more than $10 over face value or 5% of the total price, whatever is greater" - it varies a little bit from place to place, but that's generally the rule.  So, Stubhub listings asking for more than that (or whatever it is in the specific state where the event is being held) are illegal listings, and Stubhub shouldn't allow them to be placed in the first place.  I realize it's not life or death in the way that some other issues are, but the attorneys general in those states should send "cease and desist" letters to Stubhub and tell them to knock it off.  If Stubhub was listing illegal drugs, for instance, instead of illegally priced concert tickets, it would be very clear that it was not allowed and that they should be stopped.  I don't see why it should be different with Stubhub.  Their entire business model depends on facilitating the reselling of tickets at prices and terms that go against the laws in many states.  And those laws aren't being enforced, which hurts fans.  This is another instance where the different artists could help.  If every artist who said they hated scalping got together and sent their lawyers to draft joint letters to every state where a law was broken on resale prices, and did it publicly, that would put a kind of pressure on the whole thing that's never been felt before.

[Mark Taylor]

On 09/02/2018 at 8:42 PM, vertigojds said:

I feel like some of the problem is related to the LiveNation/Ticketmaster/U2 partnership, and some of the problem is related to laws on the books not being enforced.

From the LiveNation/Ticketmaster/U2 end of things, Ticketmaster offers what they call "Verified Resale" tickets which is their own version of Stubhub.  Ticketmaster has stated that they only allow Verified Resale ticket listings with the artist's consent - presumably the artist receives a cut of the proceeds.  Ticketmaster explicitly stated that they only allow this when the artist has given consent, making it sound that rather than an artist needing to "opt out," that an artist has to specifically "opt in."  Ticketmaster offers Verified Resale tickets for U2.  In fact, for the most recent Madison Square Garden show, at the moment tickets went onsale at 9am, I was immediately shown dozens of listings for resale tickets before I was even given the option to look at a face value ticket.  (Presumably this is from people who bought fan club and/or Citi presale tickets and listed them in advance of the public onsale.)  Since Ticketmaster has said they only do Verified Fan with the artist's consent, this means that U2 has consented to this.  I can't think of any way around that cold, hard fact.  It's a simple logic chain in the end:
    1. All shows that have Verified Resale tickets have them because the artist approved the sale of Verified Resale tickets
    2. U2 shows have Verified Resale tickets
    3. Therefore, U2 approved the use of Verified Resale
I can't think of any way around that conclusion.  And for a band that so long has said they hate scalping, it just sucks to see them abandoning that position.  There are plenty of other top selling artists, like Bruce Springsteen and Billy Joel, who simply do not allow Verified Resale.

Additionally, U2's use of Verified Fan does not seem to have been as efficient at preventing scalping as some other artist.  Ed Sheeran used it for his current 2017-2018 tour, and he's playing large arenas and football stadiums.  For the Ed Sheeran tour, when you purchase tickets, there is an additional page or box in the checkout page, and you can't buy your tickets until you read it and acknowledge it.  What the box says is, by purchasing these tickets through the Verified Fan system, you are agreeing that you will not resell your tickets above face value, and that you consent to having the delivery of tickets delayed until much closer to the event.  Ed Sheeran's team has then been going through those orders and matching them up against resale listings, and canceling thousands of tickets orders where people have violated the terms they agreed to.  Those tickets are then returned to the system, allowing fans who missed out the first time to get a second chance at face value seats.  Additionally, the top ticket price for Sheeran's show is under $150, so it shows that it's possible to offer this kind of ticketing without blowing up the budget.

So, to my mind, those are the U2/Ticketmaster/LiveNation problems -- and to be clear, LiveNation and Ticketmaster are the same company, and U2 sold their touring business to LiveNation, so it's all the same entity.  I don't think it's as simple as saying "U2 wouldn't do this, it's all Ticketmaster", because they are all, in fact, the same company right now.

Now, the other longstanding problem is that almost every state has a law on the books about the resale of tickets, and it is never, ever enforced.  In most states in the U.S., there are limits that are generally along the lines of "You may not resell tickets for more than $10 over face value or 5% of the total price, whatever is greater" - it varies a little bit from place to place, but that's generally the rule.  So, Stubhub listings asking for more than that (or whatever it is in the specific state where the event is being held) are illegal listings, and Stubhub shouldn't allow them to be placed in the first place.  I realize it's not life or death in the way that some other issues are, but the attorneys general in those states should send "cease and desist" letters to Stubhub and tell them to knock it off.  If Stubhub was listing illegal drugs, for instance, instead of illegally priced concert tickets, it would be very clear that it was not allowed and that they should be stopped.  I don't see why it should be different with Stubhub.  Their entire business model depends on facilitating the reselling of tickets at prices and terms that go against the laws in many states.  And those laws aren't being enforced, which hurts fans.  This is another instance where the different artists could help.  If every artist who said they hated scalping got together and sent their lawyers to draft joint letters to every state where a law was broken on resale prices, and did it publicly, that would put a kind of pressure on the whole thing that's never been felt before.

I agree with all of this except the fan club members selling into resale - I think that part is minimal if not non existent. I think the ‘primary agents’ have sold inventory directly into (their own) secondary, which makes them even worse!...

[CorkVegan]

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/ticket-reselling-ban-is-good-news-but-will-it-stamp-out-touts-1.3576141?mode=amp